I have been working with RM since June 2017. Isn’t it ODD with the brand new RM10 I suddenly have data vanishing?
I agree that it is odd and you need to track what is happening. It’s not a RM10 issue because we would have multiple reports if that was the case. Try moving the database to an external drive and see if that helps. It could rule out multiple databases being accessed, cloud storage being activated, or a failing hard drive.
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The cloud sync services are not the same as a pure backup service, but they are a backup. The files in the cloud sync services do not have version numbers, but the sync service doesn’t just keep the most recent sync. Some amount of history is kept. I have much experience with both OneDrive and Dropbox in this regard, running them both on Windows. I have recovered files from both systems after the files have been deleted by accident or have been changed by accident. The ability to recover previous versions is the essential definition of what a backup is.
I think the larger issue is whether they keep a copy of your files on your local hard disk at all times. In the case of OneDrive and Dropbox, they have options to keep files on your local hard disk at all times and they have options to keep files only in the cloud except when you are using them. You never use files in the cloud. You always have the files stored locally when you are using them. The big difference between OneDrive and Dropbox is that OneDrive defaults to keeping files only in the cloud except when you are using them and Dropbox defaults to keeping your files on your local disk at all times. But with either system, you can override the defaults.
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Exactly what does the hover text say? It’s too small for me to read, and it gets too fuzzy to read when I expand the image.
Also, what OneDrive options do you have set with respect to keeping your files on your hard disk at all times? The most important option may be found under Gear icon > Settings > Sync and Backup > Advanced Settings > Files On Demand. The two choices are Free Up Disk Space or Download All Files. I generally recommend Download All Files because that keeps your files local at all times in addition to being backed up to the OneDrive cloud.
Unfortunately, OneDrive defaults to Free Up Disk Space which keeps your files only in the cloud except when you are using them. But even if you are using the Free Up Disk Space option, you can mark specific files such as your RM database files to be kept locally at all times, and you can do the same thing with specific folders…Namely, you can right click a file or a folder and choose Free Up Space or Always Keep On This Device.
…in the RootsMagic computer application or in other computer applications. However, the cloud files are not needed locally when used in a browser or cloud application.
Just nit-picking. And to reinforce your point about version history, here’s a screenshot from OneDrive which keeps versions going back 30 days, as does Google One.
One thing that surprises me from this example is the frequency of versions on July 11. It appears that OneDrive is no longer pausing sync automatically while RootsMagic or SQLite has a database open, as it once did. I will have to look into this further.
I concur with that analysis.As a result, I now pause OneDrive when using RM just like I used to pause Dropbox when using RM when my RM databases were in Dropbox.
I confirmed that the change in behaviour must have been on the OneDrive side because now both RM10 and RM7 files get updated to the cloud with changes during a session in RootsMagic or in SQLiteSpy. I’ve examples where the cloud versions are less than a minute apart.
I remember that, in the early days of OneDrive, there was a symbol in Windows File Explorer showing that the database file was not being synced, as long as it was open in one of the applications. As the user interface evolved, that symbol disappeared but you could see an error message saying the same thing in the view opened from the hidden icons task window. Now, not even that.
It’s a pity that (undocumented?) feature of OneDrive has been lost as it made it unique among these cloud sync services and safe for RootsMagic users to work on their database files stored therein without having to remember to pause and unpause syncing.
Exactly what does the hover text say…
QUOTE
OneDrive - Personal
Not signed in
UNQUOTE
i.e. OneDrive is not syncing. Unless I sign in. I signed out two weeks ago. The “sign-out” status remains as is and will remain so when this red herring is eliminated as a possible cause of the problem. A problem which, BTW, never manifested itself with RM9 or previous versions of same.
That argues very convincingly that OneDrive sync is not the cause of this problem - at least in your case. The only other causes that I can think of are updating the wrong database by accident or a bug in RM. And the way you described how you were working, it doesn’t sound like you were updating the wrong database by accident. It’s a real puzzle. RM’s use of SQLite seems very reliable and SQLite itself is known to be very reliable.
How do you start up RM? Do you allow RM to open automatically the database that was most recently closed, or do you start up RM without a database and then you choose the database to open? Or do you double click the .rmtree file?
When I opened my Win 10 notebook this morning, I got this notification about the file in OneDrive I tested yesterday with RM7 on my Win 10 laptop:
I’ve not seen this before but I have not been doing much with RM files on OneDrive for years.
I have never seen this one before, but it is very scary. The whole notion of “We couldn’t merge the changes” is just so wrong. OneDrive should simply copy the new version of the RMGC file to the cloud and not try to merge the latest copy with the previous copy.
It’s remindful of something that Dropbox does that they seem very proud of. Namely, instead of copying a new version of a file to the Dropbox cloud, they try to determine what the changes are and they send only the changes to the cloud. It’s supposed to be a big performance boost. But it’s easy to imagine the “compare and only send the changes” process going terribly wrong, especially with a dynamically changing file such as an SQLite database. I have no experience with other databases on Windows, but surely they have the same problem as SQLite with cloud syncing services.
For the longest time, I had the distinct impression by observing its external behavior that OneDrive simply copied the newest version of a changed file to the cloud. It was slower than Dropbox, but I think it was much safer. OneDrive’s reference to “merging” makes it seem like OneDrive is now trying to determine the changes and to send only the changes, just like Dropbox has done for a long time. If that’s what’s happening, I don’t like the change.
I’ve had some broadband issues when using OneDrive and have cancelled my subscription a little while ago. My broadband provider has now withdrawn their cloud backup service too. I know all the arguments of the benefits of cloud storage but I am now using a second local backup on a portable 5Tb drive that came with pre-installed backup software that does what it says daily. The other backup is using a further 8Tb drive using the Win 7 backup software on Win 11. Just unplug the drive and send it somewhere safe if necessary.
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I have seen this happen when using two or more computers with OneDrive.
In the following scenario
- OneDrive was “offline” on both my laptop and on my desktop.
- I made updates to a file in the OneDrive folder on my laptop then
- Later, I made different updates to the same file in the OneDrive folder on my desktop.
- Then, I re-enabled the OneDrive connection on the desktop. At this point OneDrive syncs with the updated desktop version of the file. Note that following this point the Cloud version of the file will have a later update time than the laptop version.
- Now if I re-enabled the OneDrive connection on the laptop, OneDrive will try to sync the changes I made there. Because the version of the file on the Cloud is newer than the updated version on the laptop it creates a version conflict resulting in the message.
- It was then up to me to sort out the conflict and decide which was the correct version or (preferably) merge the changes manually.
I would not read too much into the term merging. I believe it refers to merging the updated files into OneDrive at the folder level. Not at the internal file level.
Why do some people put their database in an external or cloud drive? Seems like asking for trouble.
When I tried saving a new file in iCloud (a sync not backup apple service) I could see changes getting updated as they were made. Leaving an edit window with changes via Close or Escape without clicking the save checkmark did save the information. When I deleted the file in RM Tools Delete the file just vanished and was not sent to the trash unlike all other mac programs.
That scenario is different from mine but has in common two computers sharing OneDrive. The Notebook does not have RM7 but it would have had a copy of the .rmgc file that I opened on the Laptop and made changes on (basically repeated Rebuild Indexes). That was yesterday. The notification appeared only on the Notebook and was timestamped when that computer was awakened this morning. There was no such notification on the Laptop. It’s possible the Notebook was asleep since before the Laptop file was changed until being awakened this morning.
I get your point that “merging” in OneDrive may be only at the directory level as it originally appeared to be but it could be more granular than that as @thejerrybryan describes for DropBox, similar to incremental or differential backups to save time and bandwidth while closely following the working file.
- Because a cloud synced folder provides offsite backup. I do understand the difference between a cloud sync folder and a pure backup solution, but a cloud synced folder really is a kind of offsite backup. The cloud sync software I have used even includes a history of synced files. So you have more of a backup than just a current snapshot of your current files.
- Because a cloud synced folder provides a means to use the same database across more than one computer
- Because they use cloud sync folders for files that are not database files without incident, and they don’t understand how different database files are from sequential files. And they don’t understand the need to pause the cloud sync software while using a database which is in a cloud synced folder.
My reasons above are specific to cloud sync solutions. I’m less sanguine about the reasons for using external drives for the RM database. For example, back in the earliest days of PC’s when there were small hard disks and there were floppy disks, users would sometimes put their most important files on floppy disks rather than on the small hard disks because they felt that floppy disks didn’t need to be backed up. The truth was that floppy disks were a much less reliable storage media than were hard disks. I think removable disks are fine as long as they are fully included in your backup plan. But they do need to be backed up, just like your floppy disks needed to be backed up decades ago. And external hard disks are likely to be much slower than your internal hard disk.
I do use external hard disks as a part of my overall backup plan, but I use them for backup only and not as primary storage for my RM database nor for anything else.
Point 1. mac time machine does automatic complete computer backups to an external drive (one connected continuously and a 2nd every 10 days). It is very easy to browse those backups to retrieve back files. iCloud drive is a folder for items you want available to other devices but is not part of your mac’s backup. iDrive provides a similar continuous and nightly cloud backup service. I have never seen a problem with FTM or RM files even though these backups snatch up any file with changes in real time.
Point 2 and 3. one file synced across 2 computers may work fine for most files and FTM but is perhaps the issue some RM people seem to have. When I tried a RM file in icloud and made changes without using the save √ (close…escape) RM10 locked up and I could see a slightly delayed cloud file update when I saved changes normally.
RM 10 is a very odd program which violates so many mac OS conventional behaviours that I am never surprised when it does something weird.
Is it still very slow to load on Windows (on mac I blame this on Rosetta translated intel only code)?
RM10 loads in about 4 seconds on my Win PC and my main database about 7 seconds later. Db size is:-
PC details (if it helps)
On a backup note, if you always sync with your Ancestry tree after a session, isn’t that a cloud backup if you don’t withhold any info from Ancestry?
Unfortunately, some of the information that has been given about what the macOS Time Machine does as a backup option seem to be lacking in accuracy.
For the record Time Machine default action is:
" Backup frequency and duration
Time Machine automatically makes hourly backups for the past 24 hours, daily backups for the past month, and weekly backups for all previous months. The oldest backups are deleted when your backup disk is full.
To change the backup frequency in macOS Ventura or later, choose Open Time Machine Settings from the Time Machine menu. Click Options, then choose a setting from the “Back up frequency” menu.
The first [backup might take longer than you expect, but you can continue using your Mac while a backup is underway. Time Machine backs up only the files that changed since the previous backup, so future backups will be faster."
In short, Time Machine makes 1 full data backups at the start of a sequence followed by numerous partial/differential backups which it ‘knits together’ when it has to delete earlier files to create backup space and also if/when system file restoration/retrieval is required. Having used the restoration procedure a number of times over the last 12+ years of Mac use, I have always found it to be reliable, but still maintain additional data backups primarily by using synchronisation software, and testing on a secondary computer system.
For those of you who prefer your information be accurately sourced, see: Back up your Mac with Time Machine - Apple Support
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