Place Fields: Name vs Standard

RootsMagic
1

What is the primary purpose of using the Place “Standard” field? At least, how are folks using it?

The regular Place Name shows up on sentences. If that seems too long for a narrative, Place Abbrev seems the mostly likely way to shorten in specific sentences. Then, how is the Place Standard used?

On the YouTube video “Places and Locations in RootsMagic 8”, Bruce Buzbee says that if you don’t want the full detail in the Name field, then you can put the full name in the Standard field.

So: If I change Place Name to “Atlanta, Fulton, Georgia” and I put the “Atlanta, Fulton, Georgia, United States” in the Standard field, when does that Standard field come into play? How does it filter into other program functions?

2

Here is how I use the place fields. The Place record has two place names (name and standard) and set of coordinates. I use the Place name to designate the location cited in the fact as it was at the time of the event. So, for instance, my Colonial American facts/events prior to 1784 show the place and/or county and/or state referenced in the record along with British America. The Standard name is the full current location name, as displayed in the gazetteer, that is designated with the coordinates in the record. So in the narrative report, I want my locations to display the name as it was called at the time of the event. Many people and gen databases use locations with their current names so preferences are important in how the names are used. I have many fact references to locations in Virginia that are now in West Virginia. There are many locations examples in how the boundaries of counties changed.

3

I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Standard Place Name in RM actually comes into play for any purpose other than that you can see it on the screen. If it actually can come into play in some other way, I would love to know what that other way is because I might be able to take advantage of it.

4

Agreed, thejerrybryan. It would be nice to know the original intention and how it interacts with the database.

As OleSeminole uses it, I believe he finds use from how he ties the Place Name form to the fact.

However, further use might forthcoming if we understood more about it.

5

It appears to be targeted for GEDCOM data interchange between genealogy programs (presumably for when the source program’s Place Name entry may challenge recognition by the destination programs) to correlate variation of naming for the same or very close place.

0 _PLAC Anson, Somerset, Maine
1 MAP
2 LATI N44.7983300
2 LONG W69.8897200
1 STND Anson, Somerset, Maine, United States

6

I believe we also send the standardize place name when sharing with FamilySearch Family Tree.

7

While this question doesn’t fall directly into ‘name vs standard’, it does relate to the proper way to enter a location.

If available, I always use the City, County, State, Country format. But how should I enter the location if I don’t know the city? Should a comma be placed in the city position, ex: , Kent, Delaware, United States?

And what if I’m unsure whether the location is a city or a county, ex: New York, New York, New York, United States? I usually enter: , , New York, United States and then in notes state that the record lists “New York” as the location but unsure if it the city or the county and that I’m looking for other sources to verify one way or the other.

Should those commas be entered or will it cause issues if/when a gedcom file is created?

Thank you so much for your time. It’s greatly appreciated.

8

In my opinion, the City, County, State, Country format is completely inadequate and often is just really wrong. I therefore do not consider myself bound by it. I think the standard place name format is in need of a complete do-over. It’s never going to happen, but that doesn’t mean it’s not desperately needed.

But in partial answer to your question, when there is no city the most conventional format is County, State, Country with no leading comma to indicate the missing city.

I have many cases where I have a city but no county. This can arise because some cities are independent of any counties. This is especially common in Virginia, but it can happen in other states as well. For example, Richmond, Virginia, United States makes it look like it’s Richmond County and there is no city, but in fact Richmond is the city and there really is no county. But do you really want to enter the place as Richmond, , Virginia, United States with the extra comma indicating the absence of a county? I call this the “counting commas” solution to the problem, and I totally reject anything that involves counting commas. The standard way of solving this particular problem is Richmond (city), Virginia, United States but I think that looks really ugly in reports so I don’t do it that way.

A city without a county can also arise because some cities span multiple counties and I only know the city and I don’t know the county. For example, I may only know that an event occurred in Atlanta, Georgia, United States. It’s not correct convert that to Atlanta, Fulton, Georgia, United States just because Fulton County is one of the counties which are spanned by the city of Atlanta. You really need to know the county before you enter a county.

A city without a county can also arise for example because some Canadian provinces have counties and some Canadian provinces don’t have counties. Which raises the larger issue that the City, County, State, Country scheme is very American and often does not translate well at all to other countries. There can be all kind of other political subdivisions that are important to record and which can’t be recorded properly under the City, County, State, Country scheme.

As for me, I always include the word County in any place names which include a county, e.g., Atlanta, Fulton County, Georgia. This lets me enter just Atlanta, Georgia if I don’t know that county because Atlanta is clearly not a county because it doesn’t include the word County. Similarly, I include such things as Township and Townlands (in Ireland) and Duchy or whatever name as part of the place name, e.g., West Deer Township, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. Doing so pretty much solves the problem of whether Atlanta is a city or county in the place name of Atlanta, Georgia. It doesn’t say Atlanta County, Georgia (which doesn’t exist anyway), so it’s a city rather than a county.

I don’t enter a country for American place names because entering United States or USA over and over and over and over again makes no sense for reports. I think I might need to look at RM’s abbreviated place names feature as a possible workaround for this problem.

In the case of the area around New York City, I am as clueless as everybody else as to how place names should be entered.

I should hasten to add that I frequently run afoul of the Place Name Standard police. So violate the Place Name Standard at your own peril, even if it’s a totally inadequate standard that’s often just really wrong.

1 Like
9

And here in the US we have a few independent cities that do not belong to a county: Baltimore, St. Louis, Carson City and a bunch in Virginia.

10

Thank you so much Jerry and RW for the explainations.

I do try to minimize the commas for ease of reading. If I don’t know the city, then I’ll add “County” to the county. If the town, village, etc., has an identifying distinction, I will add that (ex: Schoolcraft Village) if the county is unknown or undetermined (spanning several counties).

I do understand what you mean about foreign places. To get the correct order, I usually google the place and then make a notation in notes that it is the current place name (with the year I found the info).

I suppose I’ll keep muddling along and try to remain as consistent as possible within my tree.

Thank you again for your explanation. It was helpful and informative.

11

Maybe I can help.

I always abbreviate states and provinces (e.g., NY, CA, MA, ON, QC, etc.) and the United States (USA). I spell out the full names of foreign countries as we spell them in English (Finland NOT Suomi, Switzerland NOT Helvetia, etc.).

If a city/town/village has the exact same name as the county of which it is part (or co-terminous), I only show the name once (Los Angeles, CA, USA). If I only know the county, but not the municipality, in a place that could potentially have a redundancy, then I add the word “County” (Los Angeles County, CA, USA).

New York City currently has:

Five boroughs: The Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, Staten Island; and
Five counties: Bronx, Kings, New York, Queens, Richmond

How I enter NYC place names:

Bronx, NY, USA
Brooklyn, Kings, NY, USA
New York, NY, USA*
[Local Post Office]**, Queens, NY, USA
Staten Island, Richmond, NY, USA

*Manhattan is an exception to using the borough name, for historical reasons

**Queens is where it really gets complicated. Unlike the other boroughs, in Queens, most neighborhood names are treated as if they were separate municipalities (which they are not). Thus, I use:

Forest Hills, NY 11375 for postal mail
Forest Hills, Queens, NY, USA within RM

For a detailed explanation of how boundaries changed over the centuries, see Before the Five-borough City by Harry Macy Jr. of NYG&B.

Bob Friedman
Brooklyn, NY

12

I’d like to add another widely used source for location data-

Note that this chat system hides the real URL.
The site I am suggesting is the FamilySearch.org site followed by “/research/places”

WikiTree also recommends use for FS place names.
I use them in RM and it makes transfer with FSFT easier.

13

Jerry, I believe you and I are cut from the same cloth. I refuse to adapt to the “Standards” of online tree sites, which I believe can create more confusion than they eliminate. I always include the word “County” with the name of a county. I have a lot of events in and around Athens, Ohio, i.e. Athens, Athens County, Ohio, the city. If the event is in an unincorporated part of the county it occurred in Athens County, Ohio, certainly not in Athens, Ohio. Progress is not always necessary!

BTW, I do a lot of work in New York City. Not difficult once you get the hang of it:

There are five boroughs of the city, which are also counties:

Borough--------Location

Manhattan-----New York, New York County, New York
Bronx----------- New York, Bronx County, New York
Queens---------New York, Queens County, New York
Brooklyn-------New York, Kings County, New York
Richmond New York, Richmond County, New York (aka Staten Island)

Jerry, feel free if you ever have any questions re the above.

Best,

Paul

14

And if all you know is New York City without a county or borough, then it’s just New York, New York? That’s the way Frank Sinatra did it in his well known song.

15

Good one, Jerry!!!

16

Paul, as a native New Yorker (in the full sense of NY, NY, a/k/a Manhattan), I’m instinctively horrified by your nomenclature :astonished: Except for Manhattan, your method describes places that don’t exist. You’re using “New York” as a synonym for “New York City,” and then placing New York (City) inside 5 different counties–not possible! The five boroughs, which are also five counties, are contained within NYC, not the other way around. A major problem arises because New York County = the Borough of Manhattan and, since 1898, Kings County = the Borough of Brooklyn.

I understand and applaud your desire for logic, simplicity and consistency. Unfortunately, when it comes to my home town, fuggedaboudit!

Bob

18

Sorry, doesn’t work that way. New York, NY is Manhattan and Manhattan only. If the borough/county is unknown, it should be New York City, NY, USA or New York (City), NY, USA.