I find myself frequently clicking on the chevrons on the life summary panel because they appear to me to be collapsed when they are open and vice versa. The direction they point, ‘down’ indicating collapsed and ‘greater than’ indicating expanded, seems the reverse of the norm. For instance, the chevrons in the source/citation panel follow the more typical pattern.
I realize that this is a minor detail but wanted to call it out as a potential future update for consistency.
[edit] While I’m deep in the UI minutiae, the use of a chevron to indicate “More Actions” is also confusing, leading to the additional actions being somewhat hidden. I realize the challenge of working with limited screen real estate and suggest that changing this symbol to the 3 vertical dots that RM typically uses for this purpose would improve usability.
I agree. They seem reversed.
I agree again. I think the 3 dots would be better in this situation.
Actually, the down chevron can be confusing in the same manner several places in the UI. For example, in the scenario you are showing I first tried to click on the name Edward Card because sometimes with the down chevron you have to click on the chevron itself and sometimes you can click anywhere on the line. But I tend to recognize the down chevron as indicating something is about to slide if you click on it whereas the 3 dots tends to be offering a dropdown. Or at least the 3 dots is usually not offering a slide. Sometimes you get a popup instead of a dropdown. It might be nice to know that if you click on a down chevron, something is going to slide and if you click on a 3 dots there is going to be a dropdown or a popup.
I just updated a piece of software called Microsoft Visual Studio that I use even more than I use RM11. Until the new update, Visual Studio used plus signs and minus signs to open and close options whereas RM is using right chevrons and down chevrons to open and close the options in the Life Summary panel. But guess what! The newly updated Visual Studio is now using right chevrons and down chevrons instead of plus signs and minus signs. Using chevrons in this way must be the new fad in user interface design.
And guess what again! The right chevrons and down chevrons in Visual Studio work the opposite way from those in RM11. In my humble opinion, Visual Studio gets it right and RM11 gets it backwards. I wish RM11 would change the chevrons to match the way Visual Studio is doing it - not to match Visual Studio, but simply to get it right.
This reminds me of the up and down chevrons at the top of a column in People List View in RM7. The chevrons indicated whether the column was sorted up or sorted down. And the chevrons were backwards. The chevrons were up for a down sorted column and down for an up sorted column. RM8/9/10/11 solved the problem of the backwards chevrons in People List View by not having any up and down chevrons at all for the columns. So you can’t even tell any more which column is sorted. That is not progress. It is the loss of a valuable feature.
It’s easy to say that maybe RM just likes to do things backwards, but I think the problem is a little more subtle than that. Suppose that in some user interface for some mythical program there is a button that can simply say ON or OFF. If you click it when it says ON, it switches to OFF. If you click it when it says OFF, it switches to ON. So far, so good. But what does the button even mean? It could mean one of two things.
Therefore, the way RM11 is doing the chevrons in the Life Summary panel is not totally unreasonable. And the way RM7 did the chevrons at the top of columns in People List view is not totally unreasonable. But as a sample size of 1, the way RM thinks about such things is the exact opposite of the way I think about such things. I think chevrons or buttons or other visual indicators should reflect the current status rather than reflecting the action I’m going to take.
From gmail…
Thanks to everyone for your comments. Unsurprisingly, I also found the gmail chevrons to be counterintuitive when they first appeared a few years ago, especially because they directly follow the “Categories” label which uses Chevrons in the more traditional way. Though, in the case of gmail, the dynamic More|Less labels help indicate their intent, so I mistakenly click on them less often.
Will be interesting to see if this trend continues.
Bruce just posted on Facebook that two changes will be made to the chevrons in the Life Summary panel in the next update.
One of the changes is that the far right downward pointing chevrons that give you a popup list of actions will be replaced with a 3 dots icons. I think that’s an excellent change.
The other change is that the right pointing chevron when an option is open will be replaced with an up pointing chevron. The down pointing chevron when an option is closed will remain down pointing. The rationale is that the chevron should reflect the action that you are taking when you click the chevron rather than reflecting the current status.
Users on Facebook who thought the current way it works is backwards gave examples from other software supporting their request for a change. Bruce reported that there is no generally accepted standard and gave other examples from other software supporting the way RM is going to do it.
To me, the change is going to make the chevrons in the Life Summary even more backwards than they were before. So this part of the coming change does not seem to me like progress.
Thanks for the update. I tend to agree with your analysis that having the chevron pointing to the desired state versus the current state is a loss, not progress, though it’s hard to find fault with RM for following a trend that tech industry leaders have set in motion.
It’s yet another reminder that I am old enough to remember how things used to work. How does that expression go, “it will be fun watching me grow”?
I took the liberty of having a conversation with ChatGPT about this issue. I was hoping ChatGPT could potentially serve in the role of a knowledgeable and neutral source of information. Here follows an exact copy of the full text of my conversation, not edited by me in any way. I tried very hard to ask my questions in such a way that I did not indicate any preference I might have. You can judge for yourself if I succeeded in asking my questions in a neutral fashion.
I have come to some conclusions from the conversation, but again I will not comment at this time about whether ChatGPT agrees with me or not. I will say that it is nuanced and you can draw your own conclusions, including whether it makes any sense to query an AI in the first place.
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User interfaces in computer apps often use chevrons or arrowheads to open and close sub-panels of panels or sub-lists of lists and things like that. I have a couple of questions. Question #1 is whether chevrons and arrowheads are interchangeable in this context or whether there is some subtle difference between using a chevron vs. using an arrowhead in this context. Question #2 is whether there is any convention about which way the chevrons and arrowheads point. For example, with some apps a down pointing chevron means that sub-item is open and clicking on it will close it. With other apps a down pointing chevron is an action to be taken to open a sub-item because the item is currently closed. Essentially, some apps use the chevrons exactly backwards to other apps. This makes no sense. What am I to make of it?
These are excellent and very relevant questions when it comes to designing or understanding user interfaces. Let’s break them down clearly and practically:
Short answer: Mostly yes, but with nuance.
Similar UseIn the context of UI/UX design, chevrons (›) and arrowheads (→) are often used interchangeably to indicate navigation, expansion, or collapse actions. Both convey direction, which is why they appear in dropdowns, menus, accordions, and list views.
Subtle differences in usage (sometimes)While interchangeable in many cases, some design systems make subtle distinctions:
| Element | Common Usage |
|---|---|
| Chevron (›, ˅, etc.) | Often used for UI state toggles (open/close, expand/collapse) |
| Arrowhead (→, ↓, etc.) | Sometimes reserved for navigation (e.g., going to another screen or step) |
So, a chevron might indicate: “expand this section,” while an arrowhead might mean: “go to next page” — but this is not enforced universally. Most users can’t distinguish them, so consistency within your app matters more than the difference between chevrons and arrowheads.
Short answer: There are conventions, but they’re not always followed. You’re right — this inconsistency is frustrating.
Commonly Accepted Conventions:| Icon | Meaning (most common) |
|---|---|
 or › (right-pointing) |
Panel is collapsed, click to expand |
| ▼ or ˅ (down-pointing) | Panel is expanded, click to collapse |
So, the direction typically reflects the current state, not the action you’re about to take.
But here’s the problem:Some apps use the icon to represent the action, not the state.
| Icon | Alternate (confusing) usage |
|---|---|
| ▼ | Click to expand (suggesting what will happen) |
|
Click to collapse (suggesting what will happen) |
This leads to the exact inversion you’re talking about.
Why is this inconsistency happening? What you can do / What to make of it:Use
Let me know if you want examples of good UI frameworks or libraries that handle this cleanly.
Could you provide some examples of apps which utilize which up and down and right conventions for arrows or chevrons?
Here are several real‑world examples of apps and platforms, and how they use arrows/chevrons/disclosure triangles (pointing directions, meanings) for expand/collapse, navigation, etc. Seeing them side by side helps understand what conventions are common (and where things differ).
| App / System | Symbol Type (arrow / chevron / triangle / plus‑minus) | Default / Closed State Icon | On Expand / Open State Icon | What Click/Interaction Does / Additional Behavior |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| macOS (Finder in List View, Disclosure Triangles) | Triangle (“disclosure triangle”) to left of folder names. dev.os9.ca+2macspecialist.org+2 | Right‑pointing triangle, when folder is closed. dev.os9.ca+1 | Triangle rotates / points down when folder is expanded. dev.os9.ca+1 | Clicking the triangle “discloses” contents inline (shows children). Collapse with click again. Also keyboard: Cmd‑RightArrow to expand, Cmd‑LeftArrow to collapse. dev.os9.ca+1 |
| Apple’s Human Interface Guidelines (Disclosure Triangles) | Same general spirit: triangle / disclosure indicator. macspecialist.org+1 | Closed: triangle points right. leopard-adc.pepas.com+1 | Expanded: triangle points down. macspecialist.org+1 | Use them in hierarchical lists, or in “more details” / “expanded view” panels. leopard-adc.pepas.com+1 |
| Windows (Tree View / Explorer, etc.) | Rotating triangles or chevrons (depending on theme) to left of items in a tree. Microsoft Learn | Closed: right‑pointing triangle (or chevron). Microsoft Learn | Open: down‑pointing triangle. Microsoft Learn | Clicking expands / collapses subtree. Keyboard support: Right arrow to expand when closed, Left arrow to collapse when open. Microsoft Learn+1 |
| iOS (UITableView disclosures / disclosure indicators) | Chevron (“>”) at right edge of table cell (not always a toggle within the same view). learnios7appdevelopment.blogspot.com+2Apple Developer+2 | The “>” chevron indicates there is somewhere else to go (a deeper view), not that a panel in place will open. It’s always “>” by default for navigation cells. Apple Developer+1 | When tapped, you navigate (push) to another screen / view; there’s no toggle of “in‑place expansion” (unless custom behavior). The chevron doesn’t rotate or change in standard UI. Apple Developer+1 | The accessory “disclosure indicator” is more about “go to next screen / more detail” than toggling content in place. Apple Developer |
| Slack (Sidebar Custom Sections) | Arrow icons (chevron or simple arrow) next to section names in the sidebar. MakeUseOf+1 | When section is expanded, the arrow points down (or similar “open” direction). When collapsed, it points right (or “sideways”) indicating that click will expand. (Common pattern.) From Slack help docs: click arrow icons to collapse/expand sections. MakeUseOf+1 | Contents are hidden when collapsed; click arrow (or section header) to toggle show/hide. MakeUseOf+1 | |
| Halstack Design System (used in web UIs / design system guidance) | Chevron icon in accordion headers. developer.dxc.com | Default collapsed state: chevron pointing (usually to the right or down depending on orientation) — in Halstack, headers in vertical accordions: chevron at end side, collapsed with default arrow orientation. developer.dxc.com | Expand: chevron rotates (e.g. 180°) to illustrate open state, often pointing down when expanded. Collapse: rotate back. developer.dxc.com | The header or icon acts as the toggle; animation or rotation helps the user see the change. developer.dxc.com |
From many of these examples, the “natural” pattern (most familiar to many users) is:
If you like, I can pull up a list of popular apps (Chrome dev tools, VSCode, Gmail, etc.) and map exactly how they use these indicators — so you can see more varied examples. Do you want me to do that?
How about Google, Facebook, Gmail, and Thunderbird email? How do they do it?
I poked around; I couldn’t find definitive, across‑the‑board documentation for all of those, but here’s what I discovered (and some observations and caveats). In many cases, behavior (and icon design) changes over versions, platforms (web vs. mobile vs. desktop), or even user settings.
I’ll break down what I found (or observed) for Gmail, Facebook, and Thunderbird, and by extension what we can infer about Google more broadly. If you want screenshots or behavior on a particular OS (Windows, macOS, Android, iOS) I can dig those too.
What to surmise for Gmail / Google:
I could not reliably locate a recent, authoritative description of how Facebook (web or mobile) uses chevrons or arrows in its UI to expand/collapse sub‑panels. Facebook’s UI is quite dynamic, and it often uses a mixture of arrow icons, chevrons, minus/plus, and animations depending on the component (menus, comments replies, sidebars, etc.).
From memory (and based on general patterns in social apps):
If you like, I can dig into a specific Facebook component (e.g. comments, settings) and inspect how they use chevrons/arrows now.
Thunderbird is more of a “traditional desktop app / tree view” environment, so it’s more likely to follow the classic patterns of expand/collapse triangles or chevrons. However, I found surprisingly little precise documentation on exactly which icons Thunderbird uses.
What I found:
Because Thunderbird is developed by an open project, the exact glyph (triangle, chevron, plus/minus) might vary by theme (classic, modern, etc.). But it’s quite plausible it uses right‑pointing triangle (or chevron) when collapsed, which rotates or changes to downward when expanded — that is the classic “tree view” metaphor on many desktop clients.
Putting it all together, for those apps:
| App | Typical icon / pattern for “expand / more” | Does it follow right = closed, down = open? | Notes / caveats |
|---|---|---|---|
| Gmail / Google (web) | Chevron down for dropdowns; hamburger menu for sidebar toggle; sometimes right arrow icon for collapsing | Partially — some parts follow, others deviate or use other icons | Uses mixed strategies; some icon choices are nonstandard or contextual |
| (Not in-depth documented) Likely downward arrows or chevrons in menus, “view more replies” arrows in threads | Probably, in many places | Needs deeper inspection for each component | |
| Thunderbird | Classic folder tree UI (triangles / plus‑minus / arrow glyphs) | Most likely yes, following desktop tree metaphor (right = collapsed, down = expanded) | Icon can vary with theme; some changes in newer UI versions have altered expand/collapse behavior |
So: Gmail (and more broadly Google) sometimes mixes or bends the “right/down” convention, using arrows/chevrons more as action indicators or toggles in particular contexts. Thunderbird, being more traditional in UI paradigm, is more likely to adhere to the classic tree convention (though with variation). Facebook is a bit of a “wild card” — many parts of its UI follow standard conventions, but it also has many custom or evolving components.
If you like, I can check the current live versions (e.g. Gmail in Chrome, Facebook web, Thunderbird latest) and send you annotated screenshots showing exactly how the chevron / arrow directions map to collapse/expand. Would you like me to do that?
ChatGPT can make mistakes. Check important info.
