# How would i cite a baptism certificate that was created by an Archdiocese, but it was information from a separate church (image included) **URL:** \ **Category:** RootsMagic\ **Tags:** question\ **Created:** [December 31, 2023, 5:32am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523 "2023-12-31T05:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 5:32am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/1 "2023-12-31T05:32:10Z")
Recently I asked a question regarding citing sources the correct way, and got great advice, I have the basics understood more, but in a situation like this it seems more complex on how I would go about citing something like this in RM9, the image is a photograph I took of a Archdiocese record, which was a Certificate of Baptism from another church, what would be the best source type, and how would I go about citing this, would I include the Archdiocese in the title or the Church, or neither or both? ![Vincent Zager_s Baptism Record](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/rootsmagic/original/2X/0/0fceb8787844448a9a4715f960d88821724e33b2.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![teddy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/teddy/32/2787_2.png) [@teddy](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/teddy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:55am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/2 "2023-12-31T09:55:21Z")
Starting with the repository, its name could be “Archdiocese of Saint Louis Archives” with its address as recorded on the document; “20 Archbishop May Drive, Saint Louis, MO 63119”. The RootsMagic baptism master source allows for a source name, church and location. The source name could be “Certified copy of baptism certificate”, the church is “St. Joseph Lithuanian” and “Saint Louis, MO” as its location. The church details and its location are stored in separate fields in the source master. I am not sure what the number (314.792.7020) is at footer of document and I assume the ledger number 22-11 is the internal document number for this template as used by the Archives of Archdiocese of Saint Louis. I would probably have a citation as “Archdiocese of Saint Louis Archives; St. Joseph Lithuanian Baptism Register; Seal Date: 5/14/2012; Rev. M.A. Vitkus” but up to you. This style of citation is similar to my London Archive baptism records from Ancestry so I would mimic their style (but they add a reference number). If you have other baptism records, I would suggest to use a similar style to them. As an aside, the Evidence Explained book previously mentioned covers “Church Books: Named/Numbered Volume Archived Off-site” page 312-3 maybe also be useful. In essence, this covers your scenario of the baptism register of St. Joseph Lithuanian being archived at the Archdiocese of Saint Louis Archives. > [@Should i name my records with the name of the person in the title of the source, or just put the persons name in the citation, or both?](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/should-i-name-my-records-with-the-name-of-the-person-in-the-title-of-the-source-or-just-put-the-persons-name-in-the-citation-or-both/9488/25): > > Pick up a copy of Elizabeth Shown Mills’ book “Evidence Explained.” It is a hefty volume that explains everything you need to know on the correct way to cite your sources. At times it can get a bit over-the-top, but there are sections of Quick Sheets before each chapter with good real-life examples that you can use as templates. If you start by correctly citing your sources you are going to be a step ahead in your research. There are several editions of the book out. You can probably buy an… ---
**Author:** ![nkess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@nkess](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/nkess)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/3 "2024-01-01T00:15:58Z")
> [@teddy](#): > > I am not sure what the number (314.792.7020) is at footer of document teddy that is the phone number ---
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 12:16am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/4 "2024-01-01T00:16:24Z")
Thanks! I got EE (latest edition) on Kindel today, but I don’t quite understand how to translate the format the book provides into RM9, it doesn’t show an exact title, how would I “convert” Evidences Explained’s format into RM9? ---
**Author:** ![teddy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/teddy/32/2787_2.png) [@teddy](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/teddy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/5 "2024-01-01T00:47:24Z")
Thanks Nancy, I am not from America but that makes so much sense. ---
**Author:** ![teddy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/teddy/32/2787_2.png) [@teddy](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/teddy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 1:04am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/6 "2024-01-01T01:04:50Z")
It shows the components of a source, e.g. what should my source contain. The source list entry shows the source with its components, as well as its repository. For this example, it showed the Archdiocese as the repository as well as indicated the source to contain church, its location and record series. Plus, it shows the citation details. RM baptism source allows for sourced name (record series), church, location, and also book number and record book title. Evidence Explained is not written for RootsMagic, rather RootsMagic and other software would based their source templates on it and other books. The citation quality in RM uses Evidence Explained quality criteria. If you want to know the best way to document and cite sources, how to determine the quality of evidence they provide, the EE book is brilliant. I didn’t know if was available on Kindle. Mine is an older copy. ---
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 2:37am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/7 "2024-01-01T02:37:28Z")
So the source name, did you say that would be what shows up as the record series in EE? Or what fields should I look at in EE for my RM source titles? ---
**Author:** ![teddy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/teddy/32/2787_2.png) [@teddy](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/teddy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 2:57am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/8 "2024-01-01T02:57:38Z")
The record series should be in the source name. I haven’t checked every source entry in EE to RM source master templates. In the highly unlikely event, RM misses a field that EE says should be included, I would add that with the record series. So match EE to RM source master to what you have available to record. In your baptism case; you don’t know the name of the church book showing the baptism record nor the page number in the parish register, so leave those blank. ---
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 3:05am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/9 "2024-01-01T03:05:48Z")
Ok thankyou so much, Teddy! ---
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 3:10am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/10 "2024-01-01T03:10:28Z")
> [@teddy](#): > > The RootsMagic baptism master source allows for a source name, church and location. The source name could be “Certified copy of baptism certificate”, the church is “St. Joseph Lithuanian” and “Saint Louis, MO” as its location. The church details and its location are stored in separate fields in the source master. Wait, I just thought of one more question regarding what you said here- So even though the other fields allow for church information, wouldn’t the source name you suggested being something like “Certified Copy of Baptism Certificate” be too generic and leave me with duplicate named sources? I feel like (even though separate fields exist for this) including the church in the actual source name would be more descriptive and not leave me with multiple sources with the same name, because the name was too generic, what do you think- whats the positive of keeping a genric name and is there any negatives to reusing the information in the given fields in the source name aswell? ---
**Author:** ![teddy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/teddy/32/2787_2.png) [@teddy](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/teddy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 3:36am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/11 "2024-01-01T03:36:42Z")
> [@vincentcsh.isaacs](#): > > I feel like (even though separate fields exist for this) including the church in the actual source name would be more descriptive and not leave me with multiple sources with the same name, because the name was too generic That is fine to do this. ---
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/12 "2024-01-01T04:15:05Z")
Ok perfect, i suppose my biggest point of contention is simply with the source names, in summary, do you happen to have a general “rule” for creating source names? Especially ones without an exact title on the document? That should be my last question (hopefully) on this topic! ---
**Author:** ![teddy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/teddy/32/2787_2.png) [@teddy](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/teddy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 4:42am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/13 "2024-01-01T04:42:08Z")
I tend to have fairly generic source names but you really don’t want duplicate source names as you indicated. _There is a merge duplicate source feature in RM9 but backup and read help before using in future - I haven’t used it since I don’t have duplicates, but I intend to use the merge duplicate citations once I tidy up missing citations from TreeShare_. So I would start generic and add more details as the need arises. You can always edit a source name in RootsMagic if the need arises, and conversely, reuse sources as appropriate (e.g. other baptisms at the same church). Also, don’t worry about trying to get things perfect straight away. Read the EE book about researching and as your experience grows, you will find a style and approach that works for your research. > [@vincentcsh.isaacs](#): > > Especially ones without an exact title on the document? If a document doesn’t have a title, the source name should provide a description of what it is. ---
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 4:46am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/14 "2024-01-01T04:46:34Z")
> [@teddy](#): > > have fairly generic source names but you really don’t want duplicate source names as you indicated. For you specifically, how do you cite your census records? If you take the ‘generic’ approach, do you just include “U.S Census” in the source name or something more specific like “U.S Census 1950” , for me I tried “U.S Federal Census, 1950, Missouri, Scott County, Enumration District 101-18” which includes all the details, but that feels like an overlap between whats in the fields provided and the source name, I know its down to personal preference, but given I am trying to adopt alot of the ways you cite your sources, what source name do you include for Census records? ---
**Author:** ![teddy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/teddy/32/2787_2.png) [@teddy](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/teddy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 5:38am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/15 "2024-01-01T05:38:05Z")
I would probably use\* “1950 United States Federal Census” which is the same on Ancestry. - I am not from the United States so other than one distant ancestor whose records got lost in a fire, I don’t have any sources from America. That said, I do have English census sources which use “YYYY England Census” as their source name. ---
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 5:43am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/16 "2024-01-01T05:43:25Z")
Ok, thanks again Teddy! ---
**Author:** ![vincentcsh.isaacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6f9a4e/32.png) [@vincentcsh.isaacs](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/vincentcsh.isaacs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 6:45am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/17 "2024-01-01T06:45:15Z")
> [@teddy](#): > > 1950 United States Federal Census Ah ok, so would anything belonging to the 1950 Census be a citation if it was from the same place in the census, or would each separate place be another source. For example, if you had a 1950 U.S Fed. Census that was taken in Johnson County, KY and another 1950 U.S Fed. Census that was taken in Bell County, Iowa, would both those places be ‘nested’ under the master source “1950 U.S Census” or would they be separate sources since they are from two different places (even though they are from the same year/time) I feel like the option to have separate master sources for each different place ‘feels’ correct because the master source template on RM for the U.S Fed. Census asks you to put in a jurisdiction, which would change depending on the place the census is taken, meaning that the only way to see which census is from which place, you would have to have separate sources for separate places/jurisdictions, even if its the census from the same year. ---
**Author:** ![nkess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@nkess](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/nkess)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 11:17pm UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/20 "2024-01-01T23:17:49Z")
My question is --would the certified copy be considered a derivative / secondary source-- I think the original Baptismal record would be considered an original/ primary source for the Baptism and a derivative/ secondary source for the Birth–but not sure abt a certified copy ---
**Author:** ![teddy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/teddy/32/2787_2.png) [@teddy](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/teddy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 1:06am UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/22 "2024-01-02T01:06:05Z")
Thank you, this is a brilliant question that I have pondered on myself (certified copies). I would treat it as a derivative, but we need to be careful since p.26 of EE - “Some derivatives might be considered equivalent to originals under certain circumstances. (See Duplicate Originals, 1.25; Image Copies, 1.26; and Recorded Copies, 1.27.)” and 1.28 covers transcripts at length. And I would probably treat it as secondary since the archivist writing this baptism certificate was not at the event so maybe that is all that needs to be considered. The seal reflects the accuracy of the transcription being true to the original but it isn’t the original. It is tricky though as as I type this, I am doubting myself. ---
**Author:** ![sjmoses](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/community.rootsmagic.com/sjmoses/32/2526_2.png) [@sjmoses](https://community.rootsmagic.com/u/sjmoses)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://community.rootsmagic.com/t/how-would-i-cite-a-baptism-certificate-that-was-created-by-an-archdiocese-but-it-was-information-from-a-separate-church-image-included/9523/23 "2024-01-09T16:58:35Z")
> [@teddy](#): > > 314.792.7020 This is the phone number.